Staffing the sub Post Office with volunteers
Does anyone have experience of running a sub postoffice either exclusively or partially with volunteers? If so how have you mananged the payment from the Post Office to the sub postmaster?
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Hi Martin,
I am a sub-postmaster in a community shop. Most sub-postmasters are "agents" of the Post Office. They are not self employed or franchisees. A salary is paid to the office and how that cake is cut, is up to the sub-postmaster. So, if they pay an office £50,000 per annum and you think you can do it all on your own, then you could be a very rich and tired person. The reality is that the pay is poor and in many cases some subpostmasters are earning less than the minimum wage in order to ensure that their staff are paid above the minimum wage. Any mistakes, genuine or otherwise are also the responsibility of the subpostmaster and there are electronic procedures which force you to accept the deficit in order to balance your office enabling you to roll-over into the next trading period.
I am struggling to advise how a volunteer could work in a Post Office as every user of the computer has to have their own log-in. This in itself is not a problem. They would also need to be compliant in subjects such as mails integrity, not offering an opinion on financial products. This is the province of FSA's. The subpostmaster has to ensure that any member of staff is trained in this area and that training is cascaded via the subpostmaster. Also, as it is a cumbersome process in getting somebody who is trained and may have previously operated their own Post Office to be affiliated to a particular office to provide holiday or sickness cover, you can see it isn't a simple process.
I am also curious that your question implies that you may be hoping to have a completely voluntary Post Office. I think somebody would have to nominally be the subpostmaster and whether Post Office would be willing to pay the wage into your pot rather than their bank account may be another obstacle.
If you are talking in terms of Post Office Essentials, I am unsure about the restrictions but understand that a small retainer is paid and then commission on transactions. Any consumables are at your expense.
Hope this helps. Any further info required, please ask.
Regards
Chris.
Chris
Many thanks for your helpful feedback. A number of the issues that you raise have had us scratching our heads too!
On a point of clarification it is my understanding that the Post Office do require to make the payment to the nominated and approved sub-postmaster, rather than to the "office", as you seem to suggest at the beginning of your post, or to a company or community interest group. However, if I understand you correctly, the sub-postmaster is then free to employ other people to work in the post office and I presume pay them a salary which he then declares as outgoings on his tax return. Given the training and responsibility points that you highlight, paying it over to the community interest group beacuse volunteers are used may be a non issue as it has too many risks and difficulties. But as an alternative a job share betwen say 2 salaried people would look to be possible?
Any further comments thoughts or experinces would be very much appprecaited - thank you.
Martin
Martin,
I am not in a position to advise you fully as I am a one man band branch but my understanding is that the payment is made to the subpostmaster In my situation it is my wage. Some offices with 2,3 or more counter positions obviously receive more cash than 1 persons wage but this is paid to the subpostmaster who then employs the other staff who have to be "authorised" by Post Office. All of the subsequent employer/employee issues regarding sick pay, holidays, taxation etc are the subpostmasters responsibility.
It may be worth your time to visit a branch where people other than family members are employed to get information. Get any information from Post Office Ltd confirmed in writing.
Chris
Martin
Please feel free to get in touch with me on all things Post Office, I am the Retail Advisor working for Post Office Ltd at the Head Office in Old Street London.
Regards
Ken Simpson
07809551878
ken.simpson@postoffice.co.uk
Dear Mr Simpson,
I am the Secretary of The Thorncombe Village Shop Association (TVSA).
We met at Thorncombe at the launch of the Plunkett on-line network in support of community shops.
We may have explained to you when we met that our shop manageress, who is employed by the shop, is also the sub-postmistress at Thornecombe.
It has been difficult for us to find a sub-postmaster. We made it a condition of any appointment of a shop manager that that person applied for the post of sub-postmaster. My understanding is that the PO had no other applicants for the position of sub-postmaster at Thorncombe other than persons whom we had appointed shop managers.
Our sub-postmistress has been in the position for a couple of months. It is clear even after so short a period that the complexities and responsibilities surrounding her obligations to the Post Office when considered against her remuneration does not auger well for her continuing in the role for any length of time, unless something is done. The establishment of the community shop at Thorncombe was the subject of an open ballot of its residents on the basis, amongst other things, that the shop would have a post office. TVSA as a matter of policy, therefore, wishes to ensure that the community enjoys the benefits that a post office offers over the longer term.
The ratio of the risk and responsibilities to the reward for the sub-postmaster under the existing arrangements which the Post Office has for their appointment does not lend itself to attracting and retaining persons as sub-postmasters in the context of a community enterprise such as Thorncombe Village Shop.
To achieve a position whereby there is a level of responsibility that facilitates the retention of a sub-postmaster, particularly in the case of a community enterprise such as ours, the obligations and responsibilities for the operation of the post office counter should be vested in TVSA directly with the Post Office. All remuneration due for the operation of the post office counter should be paid gross to TVSA which in turn would be responsible for employing one or more persons to run and operate the counter all in accordance with PO requirements.
The reality is in our case that the shop manageress is content to be paid by the shop to run and operate the post office counter, but sees her role as being limited to that and not in effect having to meet all the other requirements of, for example, appointing and paying others to work in the post office to cover temporary sickness or absence, dealing with the related employer/employee issues, completing a tax return in respect of post office remuneration, indemnifying the PO against mistakes, meeting certain requirements of the PO out of her own pocket etc, etc, etc.
Her position is that all these are matters that TVSA should assume if the community it represents wishes to have a post office, a view with which it is difficult to disagree. TVSA had, in fact, to indemnify her against all these exposures before she would proceed with her application for the post. Furthermore, it subsidises her PO salary by virtue of the fact that to meet her PO requirements she has to prepare certain returns required by the PO outside post office hours and during hours that she is employed by the shop.
I would very much like to meet with you and your colleagues to discuss these issues and see if contractual arrangements can be devised which provide a more practicable framework for the provision of post office services in the context of a community enterprise, one which gives effect to what is happening in practice - where TVSA is the person that is de facto assumming the risk and obligations surrounding the post office but has no contractual arrangements with the person imposing these risks and obligations. If there was such a nexus, I feel that this would provide a proper framework for a long term, robust relationship between the community shop concerned and the post office. I am prepared to travel from West Dorset!
I look forward to hearing from you with a date. Perhaps there are other community shops that come online and read this email. If so they may be interested in the meeting to add their practical experience to this discussion.
Regards,
Charles Goodall
Charles makes a lot of points that I would fully agree with.
I am in the same position as their shop manager and sub-postmistress. Although I was appointed as subpostmaster only when our shop originally opened, due to resignations by previous shop managers, I was approached and asked if i would take on the shop manager role due to my existing presence on the premises.
Your subpostmistress showed great foresight in only accepting the PO role if aspects of the job were underwritten by the shop. I wish that I had foreseen this possibility or had it offered to me on appointment. This is because I am paid to have the PO open for the advertised hours only. I receive no extra payment for setting up, closing down or carrying out weekly and monthly accounting procedures. These can only be carried out in your unpaid time as any fresh transaction undertaken affects these procedures and would need to be repeated. It has to be understood that a community shop/screenless Post Office will always be expected to carry out "can you do me a favour" after hours type of transaction that would not be possible at a High Street concern. I should also point out that whilst the monthly accounting procedures have become less time consuming due to improvements and competence, I was originally spending at least 1 hour of my own time in completing them.
As I mentioned in a previous post, any discrepancies are the responsibility of the subpostmaster. My training, whilst good, only consisted of, dealing with the transactions that occurred during my supervised period. So anything that has arisen since has been the subject of searching numerous manuals at work or using the "on line" version at home. Hopefully, the on line version will be available via the proposed upgraded Horizon system. The financial consequences of this is that obsolete items will eventually disappear from your stock list and if a "value product" such as stamps, phone cards, will show as a deficit. This happened to me as I wasn't shown how to do it, so ended up buying about £50 worth of stock.
In relation to support from Post Office itself, I feel totally isolated. I have a good relationship with the chap at the neighbouring branch and exchange stock items and information. All other contact is by written word apart from a telephone helpline and to be fair, they have helped with some issues but it isn't immediate. Some branches are supported by "Business Development Managers" but the feedback I have heard is that in the main , they are loathed, as they chase performance figures via their network.
You are also expected to source your own holiday and sickness relief. I became aware of a recruitment company used by National Federation of Subpostmasters and tried them on a couple of occassions. They were unable to supply anybody despite extending their distance radius from my branch. I have since independently found somebody but went over 3 years without a day off apart from Sundays and public holidays. Any concern from PO as to my welfare? I needn't write the answer. You also need to be aware that the maximum claim for holiday substitution is about £35 per day, so somebody needs to find the rest if you are paying for 8 hours cover per day.
I think Post Office probably enjoy the kudos of a presence within community shops but the reality is that they probably cost them money to exist.
All I have put a suggestion to my colleagues that may help resolve some of the issues you have posted on the forum, due to the holiday period I have not been able to secure a response, I hope to be able to add more information by the end of next week -16th April.
In the mean time I happy to help on any other subject relating to Post Office
kind regards
Ken
Retail Advisor
Post Office Ltd
Dear Mr Simpson,
I look forward to your response.
We are continuing to encounter practical problems with the contractual arrangements between your sub-postmistress (our shop manager) and the PO. There are good reasons why Thorncombe should change its post office closing day that would benefit the community. The sub-postmistress has asked Thorncombe Village Shop Association to raise this issue with the PO but we have said that it is not practical for us to do so because it is she that has the contract with the PO and we do not. She has pointed out that any change is totally neutral so far as she is concerned but would have potential benefits for the community - ergo it is up to TVSA to do the leg work. This is but one example of the way in which the PO currently contracts for the provision of post office counter services in the context of a not-for-profit community enterprise that causes difficulties and complexities that do not auger well for a proper, robust , continuing and workable relationship with the PO.
Regards,
Charles Goodall
Dear Mr Simpson,
You indicated that you would respond by 16 April to concerns that I and others had expressed regarding matters touching upon the operation of sub post office counters in the context of community shops run on a not-for -profit basis.
I shall be grateul to know how soon the Post Office will be able to give its considered response to the issues raised.
Yours sincerely,
Charles Goodall
Charles
Please accept my apologies for the deloay in getting a definitive response form the appropriate team.
I hope to be able to respond with in the next week
regards
Ken
Itis now nearly 9 months since Ken said he would post a full reply to the comments that have been submitted what has happened?
In the last year I have become a nominated sub postmaster. I am a trustee and designated by them to hold the position. I do not work in the PO but we have appointed an assistant at an hourly wage taking into account the sums we get from the Post Office and that we have to fund holidays when all the local holiday reliefs charge far more than the Post Office allows. We were told originally that we could not claim holiday relief but have now been told we can and have put in for it and are awaiting a reply. The person we have appointed is excellent and has increased both the general business in the PO and the commission. She also serves on the counter when not serving in the PO.
After 6 months I acquired a NT HMRC code and 3 months after that the tax that had been deducted from our payment was refunded.
I found that my taking out a PO credit card did not count for commission because I am a sub postmaster!?
The Post Office are taking away business from us in two ways:
Foreign currency A better rate if you buy it online but collect it from the PO.
The new Post Office savings account is only available on line so no benefit to a local shop at all.
Multi Posting of mail do it online no benefit to the PO we just have to stick the labels on and don't increase turnover.
Postmans Pouch (very exotic) we no longer get a fee for holding this in the shop.
These may help the Post Office to improve its financial position but it doesn't help the small PO and shop it says itis supporting.
Further to my last post when I thought I had found the holy grail in getting holiday pay from the PO they have now confirmed that because I am a sub postmaster they will not pay holiday pay. If we made our employee a sub postmistress we would still lose as income tax and NI would be deducted from our payment!
Can mutualisation benefit small post offices or will it still have to close as many branches as possible to make a profit? Is there any future for smal post offices or will everything be on the internet soon?